Episode 64: Claire Beckett
Podcast 10 Frames Per Second
May 11, 2018
Narrator 00:10
Welcome to 10 frames per second, a podcast about photojournalism with photojournalists, for everyone, hosted by JM Giordano and Elena Volkova.
JM Giordano 00:28
Welcome back to 10 frames per second. Hi Elena. Hey Joe. It's been a minute since we've been in the studio. The studio is getting upgraded and things. So next year is gonna be great. We're gonna get right into we have a fantastic guest today. It's Claire Beckett. She's a Boston-based photographer and educator, and her recent work, The Converts, has focused on the representation of people who've converted to Islam, and it was featured on the Huffington Post. We usually give the big CV. But Claire, welcome to the show. You've got so many shows at galleries and museums that I'm just gonna say you show a lot.
Claire Beckett
Well, thanks. It's a pleasure to talk to you today.
JM Giordano 01:09
Awesome, awesome. So, Elena, do you want to, do you want to kick things off?
Elena Volkova 01:13
So, Claire, you were born and raised in Chicago. Tell us a little bit about your career path.
Claire Beckett 01:22
Sure. So I started making photographs as a teenager. I was actually very serious about pictures since then, but I took a number of twists and turns between that point of being a kid in the dark room and where I am today. I was encouraged to get a broader education. I really wanted to go to art school, but I was nudged by my parents and teachers towards a liberal arts degree.
So I ended up studying anthropology and getting a degree in anthropology, and then going on a study abroad trip for that degree, which really transformed my worldview. I had a study abroad experience in Zimbabwe around the age of 20, and then ended up, after graduation, pursuing my interest in service and African cultures by becoming a Peace Corps volunteer in the Republic of Benin in West Africa. And then after that, I went back to school to become a photographer. So then I went for a master's degree in photography, and ever since then, I've been a working artist and a photo teacher as well.
Elena Volkova 02:41
And how did your background in anthropology and your experiences as a volunteer in the Peace Corps help you develop your interests in photography?
Claire Beckett 02:56
So on one level, I think the experience of Peace Corps specifically was just very clarifying. It was one of those things when you graduate college, and you don't quite know what path to take in life. And I decided to try the international service path, and also give myself some breathing room. And when I was there, I was, you know, working as a public health worker and, you know, doing my job like, you know, throughout the week, but I was also making pictures all the time. And I think just having that breathing space where I was immersed in work and in a cultural experience that was very, you know, intellectually stimulating. But yet I found myself making pictures all the time. I think it just clarified for me, like my own drive and interest was really with images and being an artist. So that was I guess, just a really, like transformative experience for me, just as a person.
But also, I think both training in anthropology and training to become a Peace Corps volunteer cultivate the sense of curiosity about other people and a sense of like, some of the tools that you can use to learn about other people, like genuinely how to be interested and ask questions and make friends and learn about things that are so far outside your own experience that you wouldn't even know to ask about them. And I think that that's what the training in anthropology and the training in Peace Corps did for me. It just allowed me to sort of be able to turn things inside out and look at them from a perspective different than the perspective I would have had otherwise, and that's just helped me so much as an artist.
JM Giordano 04:44
So, yeah, it's interesting because I also studied anthropology at school, and it's just, it's just, you're the first photographer I've had on that's actually brought up the correlation between studying anthropology and relationships to people. I learned so much in my in the non-physical, the culture anthropology classes, that I took. Just about how to how to deal with people and how to interact with people in a positive kind of way, which I think every young photographer should take anthropology courses like, for instance, I have a hard example like my anthropology teacher, he had said he was a field guy, and he became academics that whenever he was offered something in a house, right? You come into someone's home, and you're always offered something, right? It's a human thing, a cup of tea or something. You always accept it, like, even if you're allergic to it, or even if you don't like it, you take it because that's that gesture means that you're open to their world, like you know you're open to them, whereas in reporters, I see this all the time as a photojournalist with the reporters. No, I'm good. Thank you. And it sets up this weird barrier at the very beginning of a conversation. And I always, always, always, and I learned this from him, and this is really, I think, important. I you know, Hey, would you like some tea? Yeah, sure. I'll have some, even if I don't drink or touch that tea.
Yeah, and that, and that's, and this is human culture. I don't care which continent you're on, you know, this is like, this is something that I think, and even like, when you move into a new apartment, like, I had this at a roommate, and they were our neighbors were very blue collar, and the neighbors had made muffins, and my roommate was like, no, no, it's not for me, you know. And just like, kept walking in the house. I was like, what's wrong with you? Man, like, what's wrong with you? And I went, I'm like, Hey, listen, thanks for these muffins. We should hang out sometime. And I think because he accepted that. So it's interesting to hear you talk about your relationship to anthropology.
Elena Volkova 07:00
I feel like that's like photography, right? That really relates to photography.
Claire Beckett 07:06
And I think so much of what you've just said in your example there is actually about the artist getting out of their own way, like, like I anthropology has gets a really bad rap for a lot of good reasons, right? The history of anthropology and how it's interconnected with racial oppression and colonialism, like these things are true, absolutely. So there's no debating that.
But in terms of the contemporary applications, or contemporary approaches, like just this idea of understanding, if a neighbor offers you a muffin, your first thought should be yes, because that's friendly and opening a door rather than, Oh, I don't like muffins. I won't eat one, because that's just you shutting down an opportunity to connect with someone. But probably the uninformed person would just make that mistake, not realizing they were sort of shooting themselves in the foot with that gesture, right? Like, I think it's so useful for us as artists, or, you know, journalists or whatever, to be it just as simply being more open and not screwing up before you can even get started, right, right?
JM Giordano 08:16
So how do you how do you reconcile? I mean, what you just said, and again, you're completely spot on about the history of anthropology. How do you reconcile being that outsider and recording other cultures like that without seeming exploitive or appropriation, any of those things? I mean, how do you, as a photographer, deal with it?
Claire Beckett 08:41
Yeah. So in my process, I'm using a large format, four by five camera, so it's a very slow tool. Which is to say that I never make pictures that people don't want to have made, because it would be impossible. Like, if I wanted to take your portrait, I couldn't just throw up the camera and go for it while you weren't noticing, or, as you sort of tried to, like, beg off of it, you know, because the picture would basically be ruined by a participant who didn't want to participate. So that's one thing that the process does that's really helpful.
But I also think I spend an awful lot of time developing my projects over many, many years, so that I'm as informed as I can be before making the work and before putting the work out in the world the project. The Converts project, about American converts to Islam, has been more a research project than a photography project, just in terms of the amount of time and effort that has gone in I've. Spent, you know, years attending a class for Muslim women who are for women who are converting to Islam, or who are thinking about converting to Islam as a way to get to know the community, to get to know the issues, to sort of understand how I can be. Yes, I'm an outsider to that environment. I am not Muslim, and I am not in the process of converting to Islam, but I am an informed outsider who has spent a lot of time and gotten to know people and gotten to know well what a lot of the issues are and what the highs and lows are. So I am not representing myself as being of the community, but being a visitor who has gotten to know the community very well.
Elena Volkova 10:48
So how long before getting ready? How long does it take for you to get ready to take the photos? How long do you wait? How long does it take to build a relationship with someone for that sense of comfort to exist for a portrait setting.
Claire Beckett 11:07
So I would view the getting to know phase as something that goes on, broadly speaking, in a community like, for example, there are several different mosques where I've been photographing a lot. So each time I would get an introduction to a new community, I would probably be attending a number of community meetings and to talking with people going to whatever sort of events they had going on that they invited me to, as a getting to know process. And then any individual who I worked with, some I might have coffee with some afternoon before making an appointment for a portrait shoot, or some I might have coffee with, and they decide I don't want to be photographed, and that's fine, or others I might meet, and they're like, let's yeah, let's do it. How about next week? And we make the appointment and take the pictures right away. So it's really not an absolute formula of how long a lapse is for any one picture.
But I would say, in general, with this body of work, I have tried to lead the session like, set aside maybe, like a four-hour block of time with a person, and start out by sitting down and talking and then move into the picture making over the course of that four-hour period.
Elena Volkova
That's great. So we'll call this episode 10 minutes per frame.
JM Giordano 12:26
Yeah, cuz it's a it's what type of film. I mean, what kind of film do you use? Sheet film?
Claire Beckett 12:33
Kodak, 400 NC, the film of champions.
JM Giordano 12:37
Yes. The way, we have a lot of four by fivers here. And we're based in Baltimore, we have a lot of four by five. So stepping back to another one of your projects In Training. Full disclosure, I am a vet, so I can totally relate to I was like, whoa, wait. It's amazing. How did you had I guess it carries over to your other series as well. But how, how did you gain access and permission to shoot in training? Because I know even as a vet and a photojournalist, it's hard to get the Army to agree to do anything, and I was amazed at just how and with your process, which is four by five. So how did you get the in with the Army to do this?
Claire Beckett 13:29
Yeah, so first of all, to cycle back to what we talked about earlier in our conversation. You know the experience of Peace Corps training is you spend three months learning how to understand your host community and how to fit in and how to not offend them so that you can do your job. So that is basically Peace Corps 101, you also have to learn language skills, and you also have to learn some technical skills for your job, but it really is a very intensive training on how to show up at a place you know nothing about, learn about the place, make friends, not offend people, wear appropriate clothing and do your work. So I just 100% borrowed that approach in my art practice.
So for the Army, the very first entry point was some reporter at a small newspaper in Brookline, Massachusetts, which is close to where I was living at the time, had gone and photographed one of the local National Guard units. Or, I think, interviewed them. I think it was a writer, not even photographs, and somebody I knew, knew that journalist and said, why don't you call this person and ask them for an introduction? So I literally just called this journalist and asked for an introduction, and they called the captain in charge of the unit and said, Hey, this art student wants to come and check out your unit, and that was just a very small door opening a little bit enough for me to walk in.
And then it was just a process of getting to know that Captain, and getting to know the soldiers working for him, and getting their trust. So they decided that I was all right. I wasn't getting in the way of their exercises. I wasn't, you know, insulting anyone or doing anything really egregious. And then I made pictures and brought them back, and they realized I was okay. I was serious. I was taking pictures. I was following through. Just being a decent human being. So from that, from there, I literally would ask for a personal referral for each additional place I would like to photograph, and then I would ask this Captain if I could have the next unit I wanted to work with call him. Would he be my reference?
And if I wanted to go to an Army base far away, I would have to cold call, cold call the Public Affairs Office, but I would have a few people I'd worked with in the past, who would vouch for me, so they could always call and check and make sure I was all right. And that was really it. It was a process of researching what I wanted to photograph, being ready to be persuasive and stand up for myself, and ask, and ask, and ask, and ask, and call back, and send emails, and ask for referrals. And so it's just an unbelievable amount of like, legwork.
But really, I found the Army to be very open and friendly and welcoming to me working with them. So it was really a great experience.
Elena Volkova 16:32
Wow, yeah, right. Was it not your experience?
JM Giordano
Oh, yes, it was. The Army was so nice to me. It was so pleasant. That's where, you know, it's actually the Army's a weird the Army is a weird organization. Like, I remember when we were shooting, and you had a couple of photos of, like, the rifle ranges, like we had, I'll never forget this. We had a deer come out in the middle of the rifle range, and and the drill sergeants made everybody stopped shooting, and the drills went out and, like, shoo the deer away. And it was just it blew my mind that there I am learning to kill a human, but yet this deer wanders out right in the drug like, which I was great, because I'm, I'm not a killer. It made me feel good, but it's such a Yeah. So when you say that there, it doesn't surprise me that the Army was the Army was like that. What did your subjects think of that of the series. You mean, has any of the soldiers got a chance to see the work?
Claire Beckett 17:26
So with that body of work, I would say the soldiers always saw their pictures. And they usually saw the pictures of the other soldiers in their unit. So I would go back and deliver, you know, a huge stack of photos, so they would see all those. And the reaction was almost always, oh, these pictures are awesome. Like, I like the pictures of my friends, but my picture is not very good. That was kind of the reaction that I always got. Like, people would look at the picture of themselves and think, like, you know, I don't like the way I look, or, you know, I'm sweaty or, or it's okay, my mom will like it, but it kind of like they would love the pictures of the other people.
So I think that maybe that's human nature a little bit to not especially like looking at ourselves, but to feel good about pictures of other people.
Elena Volkova
It's always the case, right?
Claire Beckett
Yeah. I mean, I think I probably feel the same way about my own picture, so I totally get it.
JM Giordano 18:26
Can you talk a little bit about we're just looking at the series right now, if our listeners want to check it out, it's Claire, C, l, a, i, r, e, Beckett, two T's, dot com, the picture in the in training series of the three individuals dressed in the kefir, the head wrap and the in the long robes with the M16 and the flash oppressors rejoicing. Now, can you tell us a little bit about what's up with that photo?
Claire Beckett 18:58
Yeah, so that's a really important photograph for me. That's the pivotal point, the transition between the In Training series, where I was focused on young soldiers between the time of enlistment and then time of deployment, and the next body of work, which is called Simulating Iraq, and that is about artificial Iraq and Afghanistan training environments in the United States military.
So I had been out photographing soldiers in Basic Training, really trying to understand this experience of what training is and who are young soldiers. And I literally walked through a clearing in a pine forest and came across these three figures who are wearing really odd approximation of what Arab men would wear, except these individuals are female, so it's kind of like mixing up of cultural ideas. Identities, mixing up gender identities, and also, oddly, these three individuals are in Basic Training, which means they have to have their rifles with them all the time. That's part of the training, but they are supposed to be depicting civilians like that's in the in the context of that training, that day they were representing civilians. So that the idea was that all the other soldiers would get the idea. Wait, there's civilians around. I have to be careful and watch, you know, watch where I point my weapon and all these things, because these are not just combatants, but they're, they're civilians, and we have to be careful.
But the way it looks visually is really much more this interesting, like discourse about, “terrorism,” gender and culture, right? And that struck me as a really odd mix. In fact, it struck me as so potent at the moment I was making the pictures that I actually asked permission to take that picture from the commanding officer who was there. Normally with the Army, they would just say, okay, here you go. Do whatever you want, and I would just go walking around asking the people I want to photograph. Would you mind if I photograph you? Would you pose for me?
But in this case, I was so sort of like, taken aback, that I went a step farther and asked permission to take the picture, because I thought it was like maybe some sensitive, strange thing, and it turned out to be a new mandate about the Army trying to get their heads around asymmetrical warfare. So small scale guerrilla insurgents who blend into the local population, and how to train soldiers for that. And this is just the beginning of ramping up that training.
And from there, I did a lot of research. I ended up reading a book written by the RAND Corporation, which laid out the whole strategy for this type of training. And I used the information in that book to shape the body of work and know where to photograph for the project.
Elena Volkova 21:53
And what year was this? Was this picture taken of this?
Claire Beckett
I believe that was taken in 2006
JM Giordano
and which base was this
Claire Beckett
Fort Jackson in South Carolina
22:05
JM Giordano
Because yeah, the pine forests are all pine scrub.
JM Giordano 22:08
Yeah, the South southern bases have that. So let's like, that's an excellent segue into the Simulating Iraq project, going from that photo to these photos, which is just an extraordinary series. I think I look at the Iraq series. I think I looked at this about 10 times last night, just looking at it. Can you tell us a little bit about the surroundings and the training and things that went into this? Into this pretty visceral series.
Claire Beckett 22:40
Absolutely, so this is a project that takes place on about five military bases around the United States, and they're a combination of Army and Marine Corps facilities, and they are all in some way related to this strategy of counterinsurgency. So basically, the big American military has to figure out how to fight street level, house-to-house, and deal with the civilian population. And that the civilian population is like a kinetic part of the the action too, that things can go well or badly with civilians, and then that can impact the military outcome. So that's a sort of like reason of existence for the places.
And I went there because I was so interested in the depiction of Arab and Muslim people in this context, and a depiction of the architecture and even the landscape, which was, at times depicting Iraq and at times depicting Afghanistan. So the facilities would sort of decide, based on who they were training and where the troops were going to be deployed, whether they would be pretending to be in Afghanistan or Iraq.
So, yeah, I just spent a very long time going to these bases. And the Army actually would allow me to sleep out in the boxes, as it's called, in the training environment. So I would just stay in the cargo shipping containers along with the role players and soldiers, and really get to photograph like 24 hours a day to see what unfolded.
Elena Volkova 24:27
So everybody, everybody in all the subjects in your pictures are the people in the military, right? So we're looking at the group portraits of what appears to be Muslim women. So those are female soldiers?
Claire Beckett 24:42
No, actually, well, it depends. Is it a picture of like five women against a mountainous backdrop? I am running a few minutes late; my previous meeting is running over.
Elena Volkova
Yeah.
Claire Beckett
So those are Afghan, Afghan American women who have been hired for the purpose. Of creating a realistic training environment. And so they are actually what are called cultural role players. So they're supposed to be depicting a more realistic version of Afghanistan.
Elena Volkova 25:11
And how do they do that?
Claire Beckett 25:15
Well there's a few things that would you would notice or would need to think about right away with this. So one is that they're not necessarily from Afghanistan. Some of them are the children of immigrants, and some are immigrants themselves, but they are being asked to provide something more realistic than, say, female American soldiers dressed in salwar kameez, which is what you see in most the other pictures, and had salwar kameez and head scarf. So they're supposed to speak an Afghan language, and use that language around the troops, and sort of demonstrate, like cultural goings on that some somehow couldn't be transmitted by Americans.
Elena Volkova 26:12
This is so bizarre. So I believe there are multiple languages that are spoken in Afghanistan, right?
Claire Beckett 26:19
Right, so, these so, yeah,
Elena Volkova 26:22
I can imagine so they're so it's really about intersecting a cultural otherness into American training. But it doesn't matter that the nuances almost don't matter, right? Because we assume that soldiers don't really understand what the language anyway?
Claire Beckett 26:47
Yeah. I mean, I think that's exactly it. So there are these culturally based ideas, and there's no nuance, and there's a lot of reasons for that. I'm sure there's reasons I can't even think of. I think it will be very interesting to see what a historian has to say about this in the future. But I mean not nothing against the US military, but the task, the tasks that they have, are such that I don't know that the fine grain of detail about different Afghan cultures is something that your average foot soldier is able to engage with, right? Like there are specialists for sure who know that stuff, but that information can't filter down to all the troops on the ground. It's just too much, I think.
JM Giordano 27:40
Do you know Claire, do you know the history of this project? This program? Because it's pretty fascinating, like, I don't, you know, I don't recall the government setting up Vietnamese villages or favelas or wherever the hell else in the world we go. You know, this seems like this is Bush era, right, ’06, so do you know just a little bit of backstory of this particular program?
Claire Beckett 28:07
So my understanding is that there were a handful of trainings like this for Vietnam that came late in the war. I remember one facility I visited in Louisiana that actually had something that they said was used to replicate Vietnam. But I think that this is really post-Cold War that are really, like the US military was so focused on what would be called a near peer adversary, like a large a large state who has a lot of military might, that they lost the ability to fight small scale wars in a really great way. And this is the response.
And all the sort of cultural adornments, or, you know, imperatives that came along are new and much more detailed. I mean, in some of my pictures, you see palm trees in the background, and those are real palm trees. And those are real palm trees that were watered by a water truck every day in the Mojave Desert because they would die. Their palm trees don't grow in the Mojave on their own, right? But so there is this layer of detail that that was put on the training. And, you know, I can't, I guess I don't know why. And that's not, that is not me criticizing it. That is just me saying I don't really fully understand. I don't know if many people understand.
JM Giordano 29:51
It's the caricature, right? Like, I mean, it's one step away from having camels in the back when most countries don't, you know? I mean, yeah, race, race. Racially in, stereotypically like that. It's, you know, camels and that, but that's only like one country, the entire Middle East region. But, I mean, palm trees are so strange. It's such a bizarre there's no palm trees in Afghanistan, I know of right? I mean, I don't the climate there. It's mountainous and, I mean, there's valleys, but I don’t think there's palm trees.
Elena Volkova 30:22
I actually it was, I want to ask this question, do you feel like the soldiers are trained to develop understanding and compassion towards Middle Eastern culture, or the opposite? What is the what is the goal here?
Claire Beckett 30:45
I am not sure that I am in a position to know the answer to that, to be honest. Because if you read, let's say, if you read novels or short stories or journalistic accounts of what the soldiers, Marines and airmen have said right about their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan, you will find accounts of incredibly empathetic people doing their very best to help the local population, and you will find the exact opposite as well, right? That's not a secret. That's just what's happened with these wars.
So I think that, I think there's an intent. The stated intent is to cultivate knowledge for the foot soldiers, so that they are not surprised when they find themselves deployed and they can do a better job. And doing a better job does include both executing or carrying out the military mandate and protecting the civilian population. You know those two things are requirements. But what did they actually take away from the experience? I am not entirely sure.
Elena Volkova 32:13
Did you happen to have these conversations with the soldiers or I can understand, I can sense how careful you need to be in the setting like that, and feel always feel welcomed and always engage with the subjects to make sure they are getting something positive of the experience of being photographed. Did you? Did you feel like you could have these conversations? Or no.
Claire Beckett 32:39
So the thing that I learned from the military, one of the many things I learned, is about hierarchy, and I came to understand that I am a civilian, but I have to engage with the structure and the way the structure works. I don't make up my own way of encountering this structure. I find a place where I belong, and I work from that point. So the place that I belong was basically with the junior officers. I was seen. I was seen very much when I first started out, like as a Lieutenant, Lieutenant, and then as a Captain, as I was engaging in this process, because I was a young, college educated person, and I was, you know, either working on my master's degree, or had completed my master's degree at this point in time.
So I learned that in military hierarchy, you can be very open and direct and communicative with your peers. So the people that I had the most opportunity to speak openly with are younger officers, and that I had to be very careful to not engage in too many tricky conversations with enlisted enlisted troops, because that's completely inappropriate.
There's a sense, and you know, someone who's actually in the military would give you a better answer, but there's basically a sense of open communication with one's peers, reporting up the chain of command, the information that the chain of command wants to get, wants and needs from you, and giving the information down the chain of command that those beneath you need to do their job, so it's not a personal conversation with those below or above you. Does that make sense?
Elena Volkova
Absolutely.
Claire Beckett 34:35
So I would say that I know the most about what young officers would think or experience.
Elena Volkova 34:40
Did you? Did you feel that being a woman had anything to do with how you interacted with the soldiers or what kind of responses you got?
Claire Beckett 34:50
So, you know, I think being a female photographer and artist has been a slight advantage, because I was not perceived as a powerful or influential person. I am perceived as a person who is sort of like harmless, maybe interesting, maybe kind, maybe someone you'd like to talk with, but not someone who's threatening. And that non-threatening demeanor is definitely something that allowed people to trust me and allowed me to make my work with less difficulty, and if they hadn't trusted me.
Elena Volkova
That's very interesting.
JM Giordano 35:39
Yeah, and definitely, like, not a threat to the toxic male Alpha bullshit.
Claire Beckett 35:52
No, no threat, not threatening. And I really, really tried to present myself in a way that others could relate to me, right? So I would never put a political bumper sticker on my car. I always dressed in what I would say is like business casual attire. My desert-going uniform is khaki pants and a button-up shirt, and that is not my art world outfit of choice, right? But those are clothes that are safe. You don't get a sunburn, and you don't draw attention away from just the ordinary, everyday things that need to be happening in that space.
JM Giordano 36:40
Yeah. Can you flipping back as I'm looking at the still look just these, the photos of Simulating Iraq, right? There's a photo of the hanging meat. Is that that seems the level of detail they went to? Okay? First of all, was it real or was it real, or was it? Is it? Are these, like, plastic, 3D printing, but it would be molds, right, like for movie props, yeah.
Claire Beckett 37:08
So, so you're exactly tapped into it. These are props. You should understand it as, like, set decoration, because of the proximity of these facilities to Hollywood, which is, you know, a couple 100 miles away, they would hire film industry people to do this work, so to build the villages and decorate the villages. So this is the work of a set designer or a props person who sort of was thinking about what would be realistic to depict a butcher. And so, yeah, they're a combination of plastic and maybe like something like paper mache. Yeah.
Elena Volkova 37:56
And there's another image we're looking at, this of a female soldier with looks like she just lost an arm. Is that? Is that a she's just appears very calm and proud.
JM Giordano 38:09
She just kind of appears out of nowhere. It's very jarring from the rest of the series.
Claire Beckett 38:14
Yep, so that is a woman, a civilian woman, who does not have a limb. Somehow, she's a limbless person, and she was hired to perform as a bomb blast victim. So there is this structure on this base that's euphemistically called the blood house, and there they would set off an IED explosion during the training time, like it would go off every 30 minutes or so. And a unit, I believe, yeah, a unit of Marines, in this case, would have come running and had to sort of figure out how to help the wounded and secure the location.
And this woman, and another two people, would be writhing on the ground with fake blood shooting out everywhere. And by the time you were done, you were bathed in blood too, fake blood. I have to say, this is probably the most terrifying thing I ever witnessed with the military. The sensory experience was so overwhelming that it was very scary. Just the amount of shouting. You know, when people shout in agony, even if they're pretending, it's very scary for other people.
So I think, you know, that's what was behind that exercise, right? It was to really terrify the people being trained so that they could get their head straight about how they should act when they really encounter this.
Elena Volkova 39:56
And maybe a little bit about desensitizing. Is that, did you feel like that's what soldiers have to go through in order not to react in a visceral way? They kind of have to not be as sensitive or kind of getting used to seeing that?
Claire Beckett 40:12
Yeah, figuring out how to cope with or mind over matter in the moment to get the job done. Yeah.
JM Giordano 40:22
Have you ever, ever thought about going actually to Afghanistan with the troops and recording, you know, in this, in your same style, the life of the actual troops living there, then juxtaposed with this Simulating Iraq series? I'd be fascinating to see that.
Claire Beckett 40:43
Yeah, so um, some ways, I remain very interested in working with our troops, like I strongly suspect when I finished the couple of projects that I have going now that I may yet return to working with troops again, and to be more of a more of a portrait project, kind of as I began with the In Training body of work, jumping off from there. You know, I haven't been interested in Afghanistan or Iraq for the sake of, you know, experiencing deployment or the cultural aspect of those places to photograph.
I really feel that the issues that I'm talking about with the work are firmly rooted in the United States, and that the work belongs in the United States in order to point out the things I'm interested in pointing out.
But, but that being said, you know, the experience of soldiers and thinking of soldiers as proxies for myself or for the civilian population, that's something that's really potent, and I don't think I'm done thinking through those things.
Elena Volkova 42:01
Yeah, in the series The Converts, I understand that your experience shooting for the simulating Iraq series, you developed this interest for the new converts, the converts to Islam, American converts to Islam. Is that true? How did you transition from one project to the other?
Claire Beckett 42:23
Yeah, so, on the one hand, I think I had been, I had been wondering about the experience of Muslims in America ever since September 11, the original, you know, 2001.
I was very, very impacted by the bigotry and hatred towards Muslims or people perceived to be Muslims in our culture at that time. And I also I was very young and didn't really have the tools as an artist to go out and make that work at the time, or not to make it in an impactful way. But that idea had been sitting with me for many, many years, and I think for whatever reason, as I was finishing up this simulating project, I began to notice the converts around me.
I don't know if I was paying more attention to Muslims because of having been seeing these people pretending to be Muslims, or if it was just happenstance, but I remember very vividly seeing a young woman at the grocery store in my neighborhood who was a Muslim convert and being very interested in her and also relating to her very deeply, and not for religious reasons.
But it was not that long since I had returned from serving as a Peace Corps volunteer, and the transition back home is very rocky. You know, it's sort of like reverse culture shock, when you come back home after being gone for a long time. And it takes a while, or at least it took me a while, to adapt to the United States again and figure out what my place was here. And you know of the many things that return volunteers would tell you they struggle with. Like, one is like going to the grocery store and feeling overwhelmed by how much food there was, or how many choices there. Would be like for something simple, like cereal.
Another one would be like, if you were living in a place with water scarcity, which I was, feeling like you can't take a shower. Like, why would you take a shower? Like, I need to take a bucket bath to not waste water, like I can wash my whole body and my hair with a gallon of water. Why would I run this shower for 15 minutes?
And then the other thing that you notice about returned volunteers often is their choice of clothing. So, like you feel like they might be between one world and another. So like wearing athletic sandals like Tevas or Chacos with like ankle length skirts, which was what they had to wear in their host community, but really looks a little bit strange in everyday life in the United States. So this woman I saw at the grocery store had one of these mixed up outfits that really made me think of a return Peace Corps volunteer. And so I really related to her from this place of transition and being between two places. And she and I were between two different places, but that was something that just allowed me to empathize. And I think that for whatever reason that enabled me to make the body of work.
Elena Volkova 45:43
And how did you how did you get started? We're looking at these portraits right now, and they're so solemn and strange, in way.
JM Giordano
Otherworldly, otherworldly.
Elena Volkova
There's a little bit of discomfort. I noticed first thing is that they're rarely making eye contact with the with the camera, so there's this very strong sense of being observed. And it feels like that's what a lot of Muslims in our countries feel like, right? It's, it's, they're scrutinized and questioned. How did you approach this project? Esthetically?
Claire Beckett 46:28
What you're talking about is absolutely right, that there is a feeling of, you know, there's a lot of joy and love in the community and in people's experiences, and that, like converting to Islam, I would say, is probably a very like, emotionally positive change for many converts, like they really feel like they're living their true selves and embracing God and all these things that are hugely powerful.
But also, at the same time, I've been making this body of work where so many very hard things have happened. I mean, I was making this work in Boston at the time of the Boston Marathon bombing in the neighborhood where the bombers lived. Like so the women at the mosque, literally felt under siege by the media, by the public's perception of them. I mean, this was a, I mean, this was a very dark, dark day for members of that community, because, you know, they're grieving that something so horrible could happen, and also feeling blamed for it, which, of course, it's not their fault, but you can understand how they might be made to feel that it is.
Elena Volkova 47:36
Yeah, and how did you navigate that place of being a photographer, kind of representing the medium in some way, yeah.
Claire Beckett 47:44
I mean, so I guess, like, when that happened, I would definitely take a big step back and just, I would just go to the group at the mosque to support my friends, you know, to just sit with them at that time. I wasn't trying to make pictures in the aftermath of that, because it was just too much, yeah. But it, you know, when something like that happens, some people in the community decide to hide. Some people in the community decide to go out and speak their truth. And the ones who want to speak their truth want, you know, would volunteer to be photographed, you know, right right around then, because they were, they wanted to be visible, and they wanted to say something positive. So that's definitely a time when, as a photographer, I just need to follow the lead of the people I'm working with. It's not a time to push any agenda I might have, that's for sure.
But you asked a question about the visuals, and I would say, living in Boston, many people live in triple-decker apartments, which are these three-story wood-frame apartment buildings. And many people live in rather small rooms. I mean, these homes I lived in the exact same building at the time. There, you can't get more than a few feet away, right? Because the rooms are not very big, and it's very dark because we're very north and east, so it's dark in the in the winter months, and frankly, not that late in the summer months either. But so I had to use strobes, like there was no way to make the picture. All the other work had been done with available light and maybe a little strobe just to pop some light into people's face. This I had a light completely with strobes. I think it just sort of changed the way I made the pictures and the way they look a little bit something in the process. I don't know that I have anything very insightful to say about that, but it's just like, you know, that feeling is very present in the pictures, and I think it worked, so I allowed it to prevail.
Elena Volkova 49:45
We have a kind of a summarizing question, what boundaries are we trying to break in your work?
Claire Beckett 49:51
What boundaries Am I trying to break in my work?
Elena Volkova 49:54
Because I feel like there is, there's this really beautiful sense of just the esthetic of the images. Is the sense of light is almost like this, like romantic painting paintings, you know, it's really great to to hear you talk about the use of strobes, because they, they absolutely have this natural window light, kind of, you know, almost like an Annunciation scene, kind of sense to them. So it's interesting that you're, you had to light them, which requires a lot of patience on both the part of a photographer and the subject.
Claire Beckett 50:27
You know, I think, I think that what happened then is I got so frustrated with this huge strobe kit, and I have to bring an assistant, and it takes forever, and better not blow out the power in these people's apartments. I mean, a lot of practical problems come with strobes, and then I just one day got so frustrated. I'm like, wait, why am I trying to imitate, you know, or make it look the way it actually looks. I'm just going to put a window wherever I want there to be a window. And from that day forward, it was just all about creating a window for myself wherever I wanted one. So I think it was very liberating. I like, got backed into a corner and then found a way to fight out of it, and that felt good after the struggle.
Elena Volkova 51:09
Well, the images are really beautiful.
JM Giordano 51:12
Are there any photographers that you that you look at for inspiration for portraiture? I, I mean, I noticed a few just for me looking at it, it reminds you of a few different ones. And I'm wondering if there's anyone that you particularly kind of in your early period of experimentation and trying to find your voice with this type of work that you look to for, you know, for inspirational portraiture?
Claire Beckett 51:42
Absolutely, I would say the biggest influence for me has been Rineke Dijkstra.
JM Giordano
Yes! I knew it! Yeah.
Claire Beckett
I mean, her pictures are amazing, the feeling of like youth and vulnerability and the way she works with the subjects just really have had a huge impact on me. So I would say she's my number one like art hero. And then like someone like Katy Grannan, I follow her work pretty closely. I like it a lot. Judith Joy Ross has some amazing work.
JM Giordano 52:21
Would you ever work in black and white? Because I noticed Katy Grannan’s work has starting to convert over to black and white from her earlier like American series.
Claire Beckett 52:31
I mean, I wouldn't say I would say, Never, say never. I think color is pretty huge motivational force in my work, but I wouldn't rule out black and white at some point.
JM Giordano 52:43
Or do you you want to talk about anything that's coming up that you're working on? Because I'm really curious. The work's amazing. I'm really curious to see where you're headed next.
Claire Beckett 52:53
So the thing that I'm working on right now is a book of the simulations project. So I've been very deep in that at the moment, trying to get that out in the world. So that's the thing hopefully, to look for in the future.
Elena Volkova 53:12
And is this the project you're still working on?
Claire Beckett 53:14
I went back last summer and shot a lot of new work for the project, because I was editing this book dummy, and I realized like I wanted to reimburse myself in the work, and also felt like there were a few more pictures I wanted to make, so I took another big pass at it, so that will be included in the book. Whenever that comes together.
Elena Volkova
Good luck too.
Claire Beckett
That's yeah, thanks. Looking forward.
Elena Volkova 53:45
And how? Claire, how do you support your projects? Do you apply for grants? Do you get support from any foundations?
Claire Beckett 53:52
Yeah, so, um, I would say the number one support for my projects is having a job. You know, there's just no substitute for having a day job and being able to make work. You need money to make work. But I have also, over the years, been really fortunate to receive grants from a number of organizations, and that's made a big difference as well to being able to move my work forward.
JM Giordano 54:21
But is there a secret to that when it comes to grant week? Because we're, you know, we broadcast over a student radio station college, so we have a lot of young listeners who are getting into the field. Do you have any pointers for people writing grants? Just quickly, anything off top of your head?
Claire Beckett 54:38
I would say, to look for grants that are available to your local community or to your niche, whatever that is. So like local arts councils can give really nice grants, maybe only $1,000 or a couple $1,000. But for most of us, that would make a big dent in getting work done. I think that was the biggest surprise as I began to learn more about grants, is like there are a lot of local opportunities.
So artists should be looking college students should be looking in their universities, in their university community, and in their home communities, to see what might be available to them. And then this is, like, really obvious, but think it's important, it should be said, if someone tells you to apply for something, you should probably apply for it. So like college students, your faculty members will be pointing out things to you here and there, like a residency that might be great for a young artist or some sort of internship for a young journalist. And like, they're probably pointing it out to you because they think it's a good fit for you. So ask some follow up questions and try to get to the bottom of that. And doors will probably be opening for you that you wouldn't have no one to knock on.
Elena Volkova 55:51
That's a great advice. Okay.
JM Giordano 55:53
Yeah, you want to, we usually end the show with anything you're reading, or any Instagrams, or anything you're you want to do a shout out to what's on the nightstand, anything you're peeking in.
Claire Beckett 56:05
I have been reading, it's pretty nerdy, probably not interesting to your audience, but I've been reading about counterinsurgency tactics, their success and failures. Probably also reading some military culture cards about Iraq and Afghanistan to try to understand the background thinking.
JM Giordano 56:27
Any titles you I mean, I don't think it's nerdy at all. I think it's very important that, you know, new photographers and photographers, they don't know that it's okay to read about your, you know, read up on subjects that you're read up on. Your definitely, definitely, it's not nerdy,
Claire Beckett 56:41
It’s ike a must. It's a must do. Yeah?
JM Giordano 56:46
I thought you were gonna throw out. Yeah, I'm reading the schematics of the 1920’s four by five camera. That's nerdy. It's totally relevant. I mean, I'm reading a book on the history of Sparrows Point you know about my steel worker stuff. So I'm not allowed to ask Elena what she's reading.
Elena Volkova 57:04
No, you can ask. So I picked up a book on Diane Arbus, the newest one. Oh, is it any good? No, I don't. I, honestly, I am not a fan of this book. Nobody was really, why didn't you say so you didn't ask me. Yeah, I'm like, I have to read it because I don't want to read anything else. But I'm like, so far, it's like, pulling cheese.
JM Giordano 57:27
Yeah, it wasn't a very the reviews have been pretty, pretty poor about this. This guy, the Bosworth one, I think, is still the standard for Diane Arbus.
Elena Volkova 57:37
I'm gonna stop reading. All right. Claire, we have three repertoire questions for you, okay, okay. Photography is primarily a tool for?
Claire Beckett 57:47
Understanding the world.
Elena Volkova 57:49
When I look at an image, I look for
Claire Beckett
Light
Elena Volkova 57:53
Photographers are responsible for
Claire Beckett 57:57
Not abusing their subjects.
JM Giordano 58:01
Great. That's good. That's good. Well, thank you. We'll be putting up links to your work on the website, which will carry you over to our iTunes. But thanks for coming on the show, and I'd like to check back in in the year or so with you and see these are three fascinating projects. I hope our listeners really, really check them out. So thanks for being on the podcast.
Claire Beckett 58:24
Thanks so much. It's been a pleasure talking with you.